Punch and joker...........(?????)

#1

One possibly for Chavey the punch king

(and not forgetting Bill)

as I note from Chavey’s write ups that on his cut the K & A, punch appears to tend to be a starting/dominant line, with w&j typically seemingly playing a back up/supporting role when it fades.

My previous supreme confidence in catching on the punch on our cuts - The Wyrley & Essington and The Cannock Extension canals - is currently now at an all time low.

Perhaps I may not be giving it a fair chance, think I may have recently ‘swallowed’ the line that I’ve recently heard repeated ‘Once the joker goes into the cut, you won’t catch on the punch’.

Having said that, whilst I did catch on the punch during last winter I didn’t personally do sufficiently well on it exclusively to trouble the final result with the out and out joker men, although I worried one or two during the first part of the match. But I do recollect one match though with another angler on the punch winning with the assistance of ‘bonus’ fish falling to it on the day……...leading me to believe it can have a role to play

Whilst obviously appreciating that no two waters/canals ‘are the same’, how does the introduction of w&j, impact upon the effectiveness that punch plays as the season goes on? Or doesn't it

As a sweeping generalisation, are both baits - as it appears on the K&A - ok to be used in tandem, providing the lines are kept sufficiently far apart?

As well as certainly looking to hearing Chavey’s and Bill’s thoughts on this one, I’d welcome any comments/experiences from you other guys - cheers

joffmiester · #2

chavey and bill are the blokes to ask or Fred the bread but you would have to buy him a PC first
i have a chat with bill most weeks and one thing i can tell you is that its canals that hold a large head of roach in the 1oz to 5oz that bread is good yet on our canal and river when I've used bread the stamp is always better but i can't keep them coming for the greater part of a match I've tied bills methods and i haven't gave up on them yet but it must be that our canal has a bigger head of quality fish in it and when they feed they feed

ain't fishing great TK

#3

TK,
I can't speak for Chavey on punch fishing but I am sure he will tell you the same as me, there is more than one way to skin a cat. By that I mean there are loads of different ways of fishing the punch as no doubt the same applies for bloodworm and joker, squatts and any other bait for that matter.

Personally I am certain you can combine the two baits, it may be a confidence thing, but you have to 'do your own thing' and beware of crap talk!

I haven't bought any b&j at all this year, I think the most I have spent on bait over the last eight weeks is £3 for a weekends fishing! However I was fishing 'b&j' matches last year and can relate a couple of instances you, and others may find interesting. One was Lee's match on the Walsall Canal. I drew in the 20s on a straight that did look quite even. I fished b&j and team mate Fred Cheetham fished 'small' punch over bits of cloudy joker. If I remember right Fred had 6 lb and easily beat some top guys around him for the section, - believe me he caught every single roach on the punch.
The last match of the Warks League was at Atherstone on a coloured Cov Canal. We decided to take no b&j and fish to a team plan of punch. I knew my area was tough and did however have a tiny bit of joker with me. I caught half a dozen skimmers on paste (the theory is the same as punch) over joker feed and should have easily won the section. Problem was my net slipped in unnoticed and I lost these fish or we would have beaten Shakespeare comfortably that day. It was my fault but one of those things that happen; I was next to John Fowler and he will vouch for this. The main thing is however you can mix the two baits, you have to be a bit careful though.

In many ways TK you are answering your own question by saying no two canals are the same but I know you can mix the two baits as you can punch and squatt but that is something else.

As you probably know I have been messing around with a new bread feed mix and I am quite happy with it now and I am certain it would be well suited to the WE; it is NOT liquidised but is still bread going through a different process, - it really can work well and is very good for gudgeon as well as roach.

To solve your current dilemma I bet you a pound to a piece of dog sh!t that if you went down the WE with just the punch and mix you would do fine. It may be that you are finding other baits a distraction and even believing in all sorts of crap talk that is banded about re the punch!

I probably use six different shallow punches at different times of the year. I don't know if I am the only one that does it but I use double punch always, at least I start with; I'd be interested in Chavey's views on this! By double punch I mean one actual pellet but punched through two pieces of bread on top of one another then take it from there.

chavey · #4

Hi T K. I’m glad you like my write ups, and sorry if all this bagging on the punch is doing you in. The fish in the K and A just love the punch. On the bits were the B&J is allowed, Pewsey and at Bathampton, it still is the starting, and if your on a good peg, often the finishing bait as well. I will often feed both, the key is how you feed, Over the years I have fished Pewsey, I have tried all the ways of feeding the joker and found that putting a lot in at the start and not really feeding too much again is the key and that works brilliantly with the punch which is seen as a early bait, but can be nurtured so that you can catch for most of the day on it and I normally end up throwing in a ball every few fish. But when it starts to slow down you can go over and catch on the joker.
On Sunday I left the joker line 2 hours before going onto it and they were queuing up by then. But kept going back to the punch line to nick a few more, and they were often better fish than on the joker.
By combining the punch with the joker you don’t miss out on the perch, which are handy to have, it took me 95 fish on Sunday before I caught anything other than a roach or hybrid!! The Punch always picks out the better fish. I often see articles on your cut and bags of decent roach that been caught on the joker and think “ they look like bread fish to me?” they would be on the K and A
As an experiment when practicing for the Semi at Pewsey 2 seasons ago, there was a spare Sunday and my team went up there for a practice and we fished alternate pegs with punch and joker and the punch out fished its neighbour. On every peg!
Bill I have double punched when fishing on the river in the past often to compress the bait more to allow the cast. But I have found that I catch quicker on the canals when the pellet of bread is not compressed that much and is quite literally hanging on the hook. I always start on a 4mm punch and will look to get on a bigger one if the stamp of fish is right. On sunday I had to drop to a 3mm to keep them coming, but I haven't needed to do that for a while. I think what a lot of people do wrong is think that it is a big bait and needs a thick float bristle to support it but I have found you need it dotted right down to make the most of the method. The will Raison punch DVD filmed at Bathampton makes me cringe as he has a thick hollow bristle floats, un-riddled liquidized bread with crusts and thick lines and big hooks! A lot of the guys down here have watched it and taken it all in, but All of my team are unconvinced? The guy next to me on sunday is a very good angler but I could see his bristle from my peg, although it is a positive bagging method, some times the fish hardly move the float, that was the case on sunday.

#5

I always start with double punch round here; it may be a confidence thing but on our cuts very often the first few punch fish you get are 'netters'.

Our canals may well be shallower than the K&A. I use Fox MP6s 2x10. They take 4x13 shot or 3x13 shot and a No 12 shot. Using just four shots gives me enough combos of presenting the punch giving different conditions

#6

Brilliant posts Bill and Chavey - plenty of interesting points to take on board - thanks for taking the time and trouble to pen your thoughts, it's really much appreciated

Roll onto the next grueller - I feel rejuvenated again

Now where's that loaf gone

chavey · #7

Thats quite a contrast in float sizes Bill, I look for 4ft of water and as I want to get the punch down to them as quick as possible so I use a 0.4g Garbolino DS9 with 10 no.10's bulked 15" from the hook with 2 no 12's together above the hooklength and a no.12 4" from the hook (on the hooklength)

#8

I suspected that Chavey, having studied your articles.
The big difference is the depths we are used to fishing in.
I fish loads of the different canals in this area and while you can catch in the track, four feet is about the max you would be fishing in and that is very rare, hence the light floats. Mainly we are fishing down the far track or on the far shelf, that maybe only 12 inches deep but it is surprising what you can catch there, even on the clearest of our cuts where you can see the actual bottom!
Being a 'bread head' as we call 'em round here you will appreciate why I have been messing around with different mixes. Over the last ten years there has been quite an 'explosion' of roach on our local cuts and they win lots of matches.
With this 'new' mix I find you can keep feeding it, even in the winter. I won a match yesterday on the T&M at Rugeley with around 75 roach for 6-7-2. There was only 18 fishing but I fed a whole bowl (equiv of a two pints bait box) full of my bread mix, and they never backed off until I knackered my rig up with an hour to go; the next rig is never quite the same!

#9

With this 'new' mix

Hummmm..........wander if that's the same 'stuff' that Tricast62 has supplied me with

joffmiester · #10

top topic

#11

Hummmm..........wander if that's the same 'stuff' that Tricast62 has supplied me with

Definitely not.
There is no secret about my new mix. Take one cheap loaf or any old bits of bread, crusts an' all. Slow heat it in the oven so it goes rock hard but not brown. Shove the lot through a liquidiser, then a blender, then two or three times through a very fine sugar seive. One full loaf (26p crap stuff from Asda) will last around six trips.
Mixing this is what it is all about. You add the mix to the water, not the other way round or you are in the shite. It should be like a very sloppy porridge mix and fed very carefully via a cup. If it is too stodgy crappity smack it off, it is defeating the object. Once it has gone stodgy it is amost impossible to 'get it back again', - it might look right but it will fall through the water in lumps and that is what should be avoided.
Saturday's mix will last to Sunday in a standard fridge.
With this mix you will have little difficulty in overfeeding. From the moment it comes out of the oven I can now have 4 lbs of the stuff ready for use in half an hour.
It should be spot on for the WE and CE cuts.

PS I have tried adding all sorts of additives; the only two I have had any success with is ground hemp or a bit of custard powder; the latter does give it more of a cloud but I tend to not bother with either at this time of the year.

To make a paste, use the very same bread mix and add a bit of pod vanilla or whatever you fancy. This time you add the water to the mix, bit by bit, it is dead easy. The paste will keep for around three weeks in a normal fridge, not too cold.

Now please destroy this crappity smack document before it gets in the wrong hands.

cheslynboy · #12

Nice read gentlemen as i also am struggling just lately on the punch and i've only ever fished w&j twice with crap results

Nice tip bill about the preperation will give that a whirl this coming weekend fishing with goodyear at Little Onn

#13

Chesser, there is no secret really, it is just another method that needs a lot of confidence behind it.

In reality you still have to draw on fish, - it should work in your Goodyear AS match at Rye Hill. It really is a killing method and unbelievably cheap, - maybe that is why some don't like it.

:PS it wouldn't be any use on the rivers though, - it is too light. You would need a heavier mix.

endpeg · #14

Bill, Ive had some success with doing a very similar thing ie laying out liquidised bread in a shallow tray in an oven on the lowest heat. If you leave it too long or forget to stir it occasionally it will go golden brown. To be honest that hasnt put the fish off wen ive tried it but like you i prefer it white. Once its baked hard i force it through a metal flour sieve. The result is an ultra fine powder that i mix into a slop. It smells gorgeous and the dry mix seems to keep forever. To be honest, though, i still prefer fine liquidised Warburtons. Depends how hard it is and if i want a cloud or not. Ive mentioned it in a couple of magazines before actually

#15

I keep any stale bread in summer, cut the crusts off it and place it on my trailer tent to dry out.

When iquidised it goes into a very fine powder that can be placed into plastic bags and left in your bag until needed.

#16

End Peg,

I don't think anyone is wrong or right for that matter whatever and however they fish the 'punch', - there are just lots of ways of doing it.

I fished liquidised for years and really got stuck on the problem of keeping fish feeding. I reckoned that licky might have been filling them up too much and I kept running out of bites.

I know it's especially true about dropping on a few fish at this time of the year but my mix, quite a bit thinner than 'slop' and nowhere near so lumpy can be feed a heck of a lot more and bites do come for much longer.

You can easily catch for five hours on the Staffs-Worcs near my home. Funnily enough you can also go back on punch, after fishing the middle hours on squatt, caster or whatever, in the last hour (after feeding again) on our cut and they are sometimes there thicker than before. You can't do that on too many cuts.

Personally, depite most opinions, I couldn't give a monkeys what actual bread I use to punch with as long as it is fine grained. I think it is much more important to use a very 'shallow' bread punch to get a better single or double pellet of bread. A lot of the punches around are just too deep and the pellets 'splays' out too much too quick and again is filling the fish up too quick but they do still catch fish.

#17

Changing the subject slightly, what size ounch do you start on and does swapping sizes make that much difference?

#18

I think End Peg starts with one in your crappity smack ribs.

3mm

at this time of year, double breaded to a 22 IM1. Being a clumsy William the Conquerer I usually have to change the hook about half way through.

chavey · #19

I start on a 4mm again on a 22 Im1. Like bill says they do bend a bit, but you can bend them back and they are fine.On last weeks match I snagged my fleece before the start and when I got the hook out it was that bent it looked a bit like one of those Drennan Nu hooks, but I gave it a try and ended the match on the same hook! and caught around 60-70 fish on it without any problem.
Changing sizes does make a difference, I will drop a size to a 3mm if it's slow and or the fish are of a smaller stamp, and also look to get on a bigger size if there are a few better fish around. But I only really use 3mm 4mm and 5mm punches although I have them from 2.5 to 10mm. I cant remember the last time I used the 2.5, but I used, and caught on the 10mm on the River Stour last winter!

#20

Chavey,

Just on the very rare occasion I use a 2mm punch but I don't really like using one as it catches the smallest of roach.
In these parts though there is the odd occasion when it will catch us a few fish, generally in desperate, bitter cold matches and 1 lb or less may well win a section if you are on a tough bit of cut.