Simple Match Fishing Forum

Anglers and organisers reflect on last week's Winter League Final.

Following last weekend’s Angling Trust Winter League Final – which saw a large proportion of the field blank – forums and social network sites have been awash with criticism of the event and its organiser, the Angling Trust.

To establish what went wrong, Match Fishing has questioned several of the sport’s top rods to gauge their opinion of the event and, importantly, see what can be done to improve proceedings next year.

To share your thoughts on the final, or offer advice on what you think could be done to improve it, click here to join our Facebook debate!

Des Shipp, Preston Innovations consultant and member of Drennan Team England
“The Angling Trust needs to tread very carefully or it will kill off the Winter League altogether. Anglers who know the tidal River Trent, where this year’s final was held, told me that the match was held at the wrong time of year, on a very bad tide. These are exactly the kind of people who the trust should have been talking to before booking the match!

“Our country has no shortage of good venues – Furzton Lakes, where the match was held a couple of years ago, was brilliant, and the River Yare is fishing really well. These are just two venues where all the finalists would have been guaranteed plenty of bites and a good day’s fishing.

“It cost our team £1,000 to go and practise for a couple of days on the Trent, and would have cost teams who practised for longer a whole lot more. The Angling Trust must surely be aware that anglers will not stand such costs when all they get for their money is the hope of one or two bites a session… if they are lucky.

“It needs to choose their venues carefully and consult with anglers who know the water well before booking. It also needs to let anglers who have paid into the league know where the money ends up going, as no end of people have asked me that question. The winning team picked up just £1,000 on Saturday, when just a few years ago the amount was five times that figure.

"Numbers may have dropped a bit, but not enough to warrant such a dramatic decrease!”

Ken Wade, former Angling Times Winter League organiser

“When I heard that the match was to take place on the tidal Trent, I must admit that I was surprised. It certainly seems strange that the venue was booked without consulting with anglers who know the tides on the river. That said, match organising is a thankless task and, to be 100 per cent honest, I don’t think that the River Nene – where the final used to be held – would have fished very well on a baking hot day like last Saturday.

“With regard to the payout, £1,000 doesn’t seem a lot, especially when shared out between a 20-man squad. However, I expect that the Angling Trust is having the same problem that we had when I ran it with the Angling Times – nobody in the angling trade seems to want to sponsor the event. If only it could get a sponsor to put some money in, then the event would be a lot more attractive for teams to fish.”

Martin Robson, captain of Browning Quaker, the 2013 Angling Trust Winter League Champions
“Being a team who fish a lot of rivers, we were initially pleased to hear that it was on the tidal Trent, before we found out just how hard the fishing was. In the end, we just had to treat it as a fishing match – and the fact that it was quite peggy probably played into our hands.

“That said, I do think the Angling Trust needs to learn a big lesson from this. The fact that the match was put on a very poor tide shows that they obviously didn’t consult with anglers who actually fish the venue before booking it.

“I was also disappointed to see that the result is yet to appear on any Angling Trust results website – if it wasn’t for our friends in the angling media, no-one would know we had won it.

“We never even considered the financial side of the competition until we won it, but to pick up just £1,000 seems a bit down on the big payouts of former years. I would be interested to see a balance sheet for the competition.

“A final point would be that I think it is very important anglers offer constructive criticism to the Angling Trust. Without feedback, it is difficult for them to take action.”

Darren Cox, Winter League finalist and Preston Innovations England Feeder Team member

“I have been lucky enough to be part of three winning Winter League teams in this millennium, and can remember just a few years ago we picked up a £5,000 cheque for winning the match. This year’s winners picked up just £1,000, which would have barely covered the team’s petrol money. We need to look into how the payout can be increased for next year.

“There was nothing wrong with the Trust’s choice of venue; what was totally wrong, though, was the timing of the match. They should have asked someone who actually knows the river what tide to have it on, and the best time of year to have it, before booking. Team fishing is in a sad enough state as it is at the moment, and decisions like this don’t help the situation.”

Steve Ringer, Winter League finalist and Angling Trust ambassador

“I quite enjoyed the final, and I like the tidal Trent, but it would definitely have been better if the organisers could have put it on a better tide. Four out of the 10 anglers in our team blanked, along with a lot of others, and many more anglers weighed in with just a few grams. Will Raison weighed in just 35g of tiny bleak, and if an angler of his calibre can’t catch, then no-one can. All in all, it was not good, considering it is one of the Angling Trust’s flagship events.”

Jon Arthur – Group editor of Match Fishing and Pole Fishing magazines and former Winter League Final individual champion

“The tidal Trent is a good river and I enjoyed the build-up to the match but I am not sure it is up there as an Angling Trust Winter League Final venue. Perhaps if it had been on a sensible tide then things would have been different – but everyone was fully aware of how unfavourable that tide was going to be well in advance. Sunshine and hot weather were the final nails in the coffin for any chance of a good day's sport and a string of blanks was inevitable.

“I felt it was a bit of a rush for a lot of people with an 8am draw and a 10am all-in. After every team has waited to draw in turn and then discussed pegs and handed out directions, there's not a lot of time to spare – especially with some sections being nine or 10 miles away. I assume this was to make the most of the expected tide but some people had travelled a long way to compete and deserved better.

“A paltry £1,000 winner's cheque is also disappointing and must be down to a lack of sponsorship, which begs the question why no-one wants to sponsor this flagship Angling Trust-run event – or any other it seems?

“No-one wants to criticise for the sake of criticism. We all want a format that works, that's transparent, that's forward-looking and one that we all aspire to be part of. I take my hat off to Bob Dyer for taking on the thankless task of running it all. If he hadn't then I don't think there would have been a Final at all this year, or last. I was actually shocked that he was the only AT representative I saw present on the day – perhaps the rest hadn't ordered a hard hat in time?

“Let's not forget that the event was already on a downward spiral before the Trust took it on and I guess the Angling Times were glad to get rid of it. This is a major event and something every big team wants to win, so hopefully things can be taken on board constructively. I for one want it to work and be successful!”

Dick Clegg, Angling Trust international events co-ordinator

“I have had a number of people ring me with criticisms regarding Saturday, and I feel obliged to make a few points to set the record straight. Firstly, at our two forums on the Winter League – which only a handful of team captains chose to attend – it was agreed that the Winter League Final needed to be in July, and on a natural venue. This is exactly what we delivered.

“I can well understand people’s frustration – a lot of folks have travelled a long way and caught very little, but the weather had a lot to do with how poorly the river fished, and we can hardly be blamed for that.

“I believe we need to get everyone together to discuss this year’s event and sort a calendar of events. With regard to the payouts, I can’t comment as I haven’t been able to see the balance sheets, so have no idea how much was paid in or out.”

Bob Dyer, Angling Trust Winter League organiser

“I was more disappointed than anyone with how the match fished on Saturday. I don’t think the weather helped the situation, and the fact that the event was held so early in the season was also a contributing factor.

“However, the fact of the matter is that at the Forum we held earlier in the year, anglers asked for a natural venue and they asked for a match in July – so my options were limited. I looked at three venues – the Nene (which traditionally has been poor in past finals), the Trent Embankment and the tidal Trent. I looked into getting the Embankment, but was told by the controlling councils that I would need to do a risk assessment every week for the four weeks leading up to the final, which was simply unfeasible. That left us with the tidal.

“With regard to the money, it is the lack of any kind of sponsor for the event that has kept the payout down. The Angling Trust has taken out around £1,000 from the prize fund to cover administration costs, and after that everything has either been paid out, or eaten up in peg fees. It is important for people to remember that the Angling Trust is a business, and there is no specific obligation for anglers who fish the Winter League to join, although most people do because they also fish the Nationals.

“For my part, I don’t get anything for running the Winter League. All I get is my expenses covered, and mileage paid, but I haven’t claimed for all of that this year as I know that there simply isn’t the money in the budget to cover it.

“I will be sending out a questionnaire later in the year to gauge opinion on a couple of changes. Firstly, I would like to see the final moved to September – when natural-water fishing is better – if teams agree. Secondly, I would like to consider alternating the match between a natural venue and a commercial.

“To really move the competition on, though, a sponsor is what we need. Anyone who is interested should drop me an e-mail to dipper.dyer@ntlworld.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it ”


thanks to matchfishing

Re: rudyard lake 2 dayer
Reply #5 - Yesterday at 6:34pm Bear in mind that venues would need to take 100 anglers Rudyard, as it is in the Midlands would be an ideal choice of venue.
Personally I would certainly not give up on the Lower Trent either.
Possible other venues, in my book, would be Medley (Thames) another that has been forgotten over the years.
Furzton Lake (MK) is another that should not be forgotten.
The Trent in Nottingham also a consideration.
The North Level Drain at Tydd.
The larger canals - Gloucester, New Junction or Stainforth and Keadby may also be worth a thought.

I am sure there are many more too.

It may be worth considering a rotation system from a list of 'Final' venues. The reason I say this is to 1) try and make it as fair as possible 2) give it a fresher look every year 3) give different regions a share of the 'Final' and 4) avoid 'bladdering' the same venue year on year and 5) It should bring in more variety of tactics.
At the end of the day absolutely nothing can be done when the match starts, that has and always will be in the lap of the gods, isn't that why we all go?

Before and after the Final though there are lots of things that could be done to give the match a far more modern approach. When you think about it this part of what is "Your big Day" has hardly moved since the 1950s, in some cases it has gone backwards in time.

Just my opinions but surely food for thought.
bill just moved this as i think its very interesting

looking at the above how many long term match organisiers do you see the first person i would of ask would of been you Tony Keeling
in the early days you ran matches on a large scale 200 to 1000 peggers

SPONSORSHIP

When I read about sponsorship, I think I am reasonably experienced enough to know a few of the ropes from both sides of the fence.

I have put a fair bit of my money into fishing matches over the years (OK not proper sponsorship but it does give you something of an insight.)
I also sponsored another sport of English Amateur Championships status for many years.
I (with others) also travelled to Newmarket to originally seal a deal with East Anglian Rod Co, later Olympic & Miitchell. Later we had a very generous deal with Maver; Barnsley had the deal after our side began to fade (OK got older!) but it was brilliant and lasted for many years. It was probably a better deal than anyone is getting today but I stand to be corrected on that.

Firstly and probably the most important issue is that a sponsorship deal is a two-way agreement, - this is of utmost importance; in a lot of cases the the only thing a sponsor gets back from putting their name to a match of this elk is advertising re positive efforts via the press and websites. Is this happening? Would this happen? Is there any other way a deal would benefit a sponsor via sales or whatever?

What package is offered the sponsor for this League? You all have to ask this, what package is there, - OK we turn up at this pub have a draw and race off to our pegs to get everything set up, unless you are very lucky no sponsor on earth is going to accept that and that is just the beginning of it as I am sure you are aware. It is all old so old fashioned and wants bringing up to date, - maybe the beginnings of an approach can me made then.

When I say old fashioned -I know of no other competition in the world that that fishes a WINTER League in JULY, - that is only a small bone of contention but what would an independant budding sponsor make of that, - you can draw your own conclusions?

The answer to it all is to get a proper package together to present to a sponsor. There some business people well known in the match fishing world. I am not advocating asking them because they probably all have been asked before but ask them how to deliver a 'proper presentation' to a would be sponsor and they may just help but I'm sure they would all say it needs updating.

Tongue in cheek now but would it not sound better calling it the Daiwa National League or have I opened another can of worms up!!!! Where's me crash hat

very true bill
i watched the International pairs yesterday and i can only say it was the best fishing programme i've seen on TV simply outstanding great viewing and as for Wil Raision and Alan scotthorne from 6th to 1st in the last hour great for our sport
if a DVD comes out its a must buy
i hope sky take this forward we have another 5 years of the fish-o-mania just hope it continues

Two high profile teams pull out of National competitions
SAINTS
DRENNAN NORTH WEST
this is very sad news as both have great history in the National competition
ITS TIME FOR ANSWERS FROM THE ANGLING TRUST
judging what they said at the results of Div2 they wanted to balance the Division 1 and 2 up with the same amount of teams so how can this work now only 4 went up but are 10 still coming down as we were thought to believe
the competition is in free fall 

I wouldnt hold your breath joff / bill ! Too many feathered nests in our sport.... thats one of the major reasons our sport is in such a mess     >:(

How many times do your hear a top name sponsored angler speak out on a website ???  they all use them !

Some of the major angling clubs / associations need to pull out of the A/T and set there own thing up to protect natural venues and REAL angling ...... they have the clout to do this , maybe it is time to do it ?  The numbers are getting smaller and smaller it isnt too difficult to work out the end game .

So true dodge so true the voice of angling they tell us but I too think until we break ranks and form a competition committee yes they can take cut I have no problem with this knorr have a lot of anglers as long as its re-vested back into the competitive area of our sport
When England International have to pay to repersent our country is a joke and until theses anglers start to speak out nothing will change

I was told last week that the angling trust are taking £13(admin costs) and £3 peg fee out of the £25 ticket money for the individual national
just wondering if this was true as it seems a lot to me 

Yep £25 £3pegging fee £9 pools £13 admin plus it's the weekend before the national sorry but they know how to hit the average angler

talk about biting the hand that feeds you, its all about making money now nothing to do with fishing or the anglers

tony as you know the National is on the Trent and mersey
are the Trust running all the practice matches NO! are they taking bookings right the night before NO! are they sorting out the draw HQ for these matches NO! are they sorting out the parking NO!
so we should ask ourselves why do we let them run all the competitions and take at least 25% of our money
i just can't believe anglers haven't caught on yet
pools yesterday £14.00 the trust will almost take the same amount out for the Individual National in admin £13.00
i'm 100% behind being a member but the competition side needs a radical shake up before its too late

156 in Ind National as of Sun night

do you want to work it out or do you want me too

we should not renew our memberships, i am sick of putting so much effort in to my fishing,team and international level, and all i do is get ripped of by the angling trust, i pay 1800 pounds to fish for my country, i worked out roughly that all my costs came to about 1100 pounds so where is the rest? administration fees i think not, at least dick turpin wore a mask

Angling Trust to publish competitions expenditure.
The Angling Trust has today announced that it will publish a full breakdown of its income and expenditure for all the matches that it runs.

The announcement comes on the back of an ‘Agent X’ article in Match Fishing magazine, and a thread on the Angling Answers forum, which has seen numerous anglers question where the ‘administration’ money that is taken out of the pot actually goes.

Trust Member, and DHP Digital News Editor Tom Scholey commented: “I am delighted that the Trust have finally decided to co operate and publish how their administration fees are used.

It has been suggested that these fees seem disproportionately high, leading to all sorts of speculation from the anglers taking part. When the balance sheets are published, it will allow anglers to make an informed decision about whether the Trusts matches provide good value for money. The more transparent the Angling Trust can be, the more credible they are as a governing body. This is a definite step in the right direction.”

The Angling Trust’s Chief Executive, Mark Lloyd said: “Following the article in Match Fishing magazine, which came to our attention some time after publication, we decided to put together a full breakdown of the income and expenditure for all the matches run by the Trust. Various staff key to the preparation of this document are on holiday in August, but we will provide the information by the beginning of September.

In the meantime, I would like to reassure all our members who fish in Angling Trust matches that we make every effort to keep the cost of entry as affordable as possible and that we do not make a profit from matches; in fact every year we fail to recoup the full cost of employing our competitions team who work long hours administering national and international competitions and delivering the talent pathway initiative.

The only reason we can run competitions at all is because of the support of a team of committed volunteers who give their time for nothing at weekends throughout the year. Membership subscriptions from match anglers help support the work that the Angling Trust and Fish Legal do fighting to protect fish stocks from cormorants, pollution, fish disease and a wide range of other threats, as well as protecting access to fishing and our rights to fish.”

This could be interesting I HOPE ITS A CLEARER THAN THE 2012 FIGURES

TOM until we see these figures i might of held off a tad just hope these new balance sheets explains the competition accounts and balance sheets are broken down separately to the other parts of the trust business .like we have said all along why do they have to take out the amount they are doing and where does it go
I fished a145 pegged match yesterday i think it was the eigth practice match for the Division one national so far DO the angling trust help run these matches NO do they organise the HQ parking catering and pegging NO yesterday the pools were only £14.00 they paid the top 6 and £20 every 5 pegs.Sorry but a £25 entrance fee to the individual National is a joke when the two lads have done a sterling job over the past few weeks running the matches i'm pretty sure they would run the match

Been involved in running touching 200 peg matches on the Stainy in years gone by and we never once took a penny, just mucked in as a squad. Big Al Sennet ( top bloke ) our match secretary used to take all the bookings then everybody else just gave up an hour of there time after the match to put the results together and pay out. I know some organisers charge a fee and I am not apposed to that, or for the AT to do the same, but why should it be such a huge amount, how can it be justified?? There always seems to be something to question with anything they are involved with??

its greed simple as, all there doing is taking money from anglers, you will have to become a member of the angling trust to fish the winter league next  ::)

AT waist alot of money and time on correspondence. I was sent several reminders..must cost a fortune in post alone..never mind cost of paper, print and admin charges!!!

By the way..i renewed my membership on-line........despite no intention of fishing any of the competitions this year.

its greed simple as, all there doing is taking money from anglers, you will have to become a member of the angling trust to fish the winter league next  ::)

Unfortunately AT make it easy to knock them by not publishing balance sheets for events
When dealing with money you need to be transparent to avoid rumours
There always seem to be lots of AT staff at events. Some may be paid and some volunteering, but until they publish balance sheets no one will know
Having run big matches I know what a thankless task it can be, but lets wait for evidence before being critical